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Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby D.X. » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:07 am

For my current Job, I was in direct competition with someone who was recommended to my boss by the CEO

My Boss (a -4 reporting line to the CEO) after interviewing us, my boss rejected the CEO's recommendation and choose me.

So my Point, even with a CEO recommendation - it doesn't mean you'll get automatically hired. In my case it was my personality AND my Expertise that led her to choose me and she did note my hire to the CEO over his recommendation.

The empowerment and decision of a hire irrespective of where a recommendation Comes from is with the hiring Manager! To expect otherwise would be disempowering and demotivating to the hiring Manager, going above a hiring managers head with an attempt to supercede a hiring decision/authority of a hiring manager is not wise.

DX

A post-script note: also remember the fundamentals of Networking. It's to get a contact and opportunity to meet someone with an attempt to learning while identifing an opportunity. A willingess of a Network contact to connect you with someone, even if a Network contact is connnected you with a hiring member of their Team is not a promise of a Job - its an opportunity to assess if there is an alignment of interests leading to a Job and not a promise of a Job itself. Once there is mutual interest that signals a desire to work together then the door is open to move towards identifying next steps towards a tangible working parntership - i.e. Job.
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Nate W. » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:41 am

Human behavior when networking is often inexplicable. As I stated before there might be some non-objective reasons why a new (or junior) hiring manager or peer might not want to help. However, when I have gone 1-2 levels above the supervisor, I have found this manager often is more willing to help and views my candidacy more objectively. What often happens, if I have developed a good rapport with the more senior manager, this manager will provide me with an introduction to the junior manager or an tentative endorsement but then it is up to me to sell myself. DX, you also have to consider that many smaller companies can be quite flat in their structure where the senior management has considerable influence in hiring. Also, I think what I noticed is that the senior management is more interested in finding qualified candidates and more junior managers are concerned with losing their jobs, tarnishing their reputation, or finding employees who they know personally and know they can get along with them. I am not suggesting the senior manager doesn't care about fit, personality, or culture; they expect you will to adapt and fit in based on your maturity. So, the senior manager is looking at your candidacy mostly based on qualifications. I have used this approach only occasionally in my career and often it works. However, as DX stated I also aware of what he stated "going above a hiring managers head with an attempt to supercede a hiring decision/authority of a hiring manager is not wise." Someone employees think this tactic is too assertive and might anger some managers...."like I pulled some strings to get the job." If I didn't the who the hiring manager was in the first place and I didn't quite know where I might fit in given my credentials, was I pulling any strings or favors. It has also been my experience that many senior managers know that an informational interview is nothing more than a "inquiry about working at Company X and to talk shop about a field or the company" w/o any expectations. Whereas more junior managers treat such a request as "why brother, I don't owe you anything. I don't know you." This approach works quite well for me and has resulted in three jobs in my career. I am thinking about using this approach more often but should I really care about the sentiments of a junior manager who might not like this approach.

DX and PG said:

D.X. wrote:its an opportunity to assess if there is an alignment of interests leading to a Job and not a promise of a Job itself. Once there is mutual interest that signals a desire to work together then the door is open to move towards identifying next steps towards a tangible working parntership - i.e. Job.[/ quote]


PG wrote:I think that in a job search the focus needs to be to get the job. Getting the interview is good but may or may not take you the entire way. I agree that a recommendation from above to a hiring manager will usually result in an interview but I think that it may also put you in a less than ideal starting position for your discussions with the hiring manager.


I think you have to strike a delicate balance here. If there is a connection or rapport, I say by all means ask about jobs at Company X and express your sincere interest in joining their team. I say the squeaky wheel get the grease; showing initiative and expressing enthusiasm is often viewed as a good trait. An experience manager will most likely view an informational interview as an inquiry about a job w/o having to mention anything about a job. PG, I agree with you about the scientific expertise of the person recommending a candidate and your technical needs for a position. However, if the candidate doesn't have the right connections or endorsement but have the right skills, they may never be heard if they just submitted a resume online. What I saying is that often a mere introduction (not an endorsement) from their superiors often makes the junior manager more receptive to listening to a candidate.

But there is this concern (as DX stated) that junior employees might not like me "pulling some strings (or breaking the rules) to heard " If gets the job, why should I be concerned with their feelings. Like them, I have a job to do which is to get a job which is commensurate with my qualifications.

DX, why would a junior hiring manager get upset about this approach if the candidate is qualified? The senior manager may just have experience and know better.
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Nate W. » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:30 am

There is a psychological component to networking and understanding why some people are more generous with their help than others. Often I have learned through experience what works for me but I don't understand the why behind the response. For example,

"It has also been my experience that many senior managers know that an informational interview is nothing more than a "inquiry about working at Company X and to talk shop about a field or the company" w/o any expectations. Whereas more junior managers treat such a request as "why brother, I don't owe you anything. I don't know you."....."and why junior managers are more receptive to hearing from candidates after a superior has introduced a candidate; that they might otherwise ignore."

DX, this is in your wheel house of expertise as the forum's resident industrial psychologist and HR guru. I wanted to share this video about networking and generosity in the workplace. Simon Sinek is a leadership consultant for companies and speaks about workplace issues. Pay attention to his comments after about 12 min. I agree with him and have noticed that people in the workplace are less generous today with their help when networking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSddkBrDpGE

Also, I have noticed that more successful and senior managers are more willing to help when networking than peers or peer2s. Why?

My questions about the video and your thoughts:

1) What makes you more receptive or less receptive in helping a colleague network who you don't know that well?

2) What makes people in the workplace less generous when networking than before?

3) What can the networker do to make you more receptive to listening
and more inclined to be more generous?

4) Simon suggests that the person asking for help needs to be more generous to receive help. How can I genuinely convey this, build trust, and show a willingness to reciprocate as the job seeker (i.e. in my first meeting with this person or in my initial correspondence)?

Simon's explanation for why people are less generous in the workplace when networking is “an unwillingness to help someone else in fear that they may be promoted or praised before you will."

Do you agree or disagree with this? Why?
Last edited by Nate W. on Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Nate W. » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:37 am

Do you find a request for a referral is the same as an introduction or an endorsement?

Why would one be less inclined to provide one with an introduction? (i.e. I can understand the situations in which one might not want to provide someone with an endorsement)

Do you think people often confuse the terms: referrals, endorsements, and introductions when networking?
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby D.X. » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:31 am

Nate W. wrote:There is a psychological component to networking and understanding why some people are more generous with their help than others. Often I have learned through experience what works for me but I don't understand the why behind the response. For example,

"It has also been my experience that many senior managers know that an informational interview is nothing more than a "inquiry about working at Company X and to talk shop about a field or the company" w/o any expectations. Whereas more junior managers treat such a request as "why brother, I don't owe you anything. I don't know you."....."and why junior managers are more receptive to hearing from candidates after a superior has introduced a candidate; that they might otherwise ignore."

DX, this is in your wheel house of expertise as the forum's resident industrial psychologist and HR guru. I wanted to share this video about networking and generosity in the workplace. Simon Sinek is a leadership consultant for companies and speaks about workplace issues. Pay attention to his comments after about 12 min. I agree with him and have noticed that people in the workplace are less generous today with their help when networking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSddkBrDpGE

Also, I have noticed that more successful and senior managers are more willing to help when networking than peers or peer2s. Why?

My questions about the video and your thoughts:

1) What makes you more receptive or less receptive in helping a colleague network who you don't know that well?

2) What makes people in the workplace less generous when networking than before?

3) What can the networker do to make you more receptive to listening
and more inclined to be more generous?

4) Simon suggests that the person asking for help needs to be more generous to receive help. How can I genuinely convey this, build trust, and show a willingness to reciprocate as the job seeker (i.e. in my first meeting with this person or in my initial correspondence)?

Simon's explanation for why people are less generous in the workplace when networking is “an unwillingness to help someone else in fear that they may be promoted or praised before you will."

Do you agree or disagree with this? Why?



Hi Nate,

Didn't have time to look at the video but reviewing your questions I think the answers all have common elements. A principle element is personality, some are more open to Networking and providing referralas than others and that you can't really control other than knowing when to stop pressing. That includes those who you find are open, there comes a Limit on how much you should press them or contact them.

Then i would prioritize the next element is time - and I would link that to trust but we have talk about trust before. For example, always treat a referral or an introduction as thought it was an endorsement - face those referrals/introduction with Attention to defending the crediblity and trust of the Person who gave you that intro/referral.

Time is a Major competiting factor - People have less and less time today. You mentioned flat organizations, even the bigger companies are looking to become flatter - leveraging the organizational principles of Agile and Lean - a key element of that is "do more with less" and a key hall mark of that is having "empowered" leaders. That means....less time for all. And everybody is trying to respect time including your Network contacts - they are trying to respect their time and the time of others. So getting that share of voice i think is harder today but beyond personality and I really do think its the time factor first and foremost as a key barrier.

The other element you mentioned before, jealousy, competition, etc. I just don't think those are the barriers or meaningful to Focus on. Why?No time! And because People have less and less time some times if you're on the receiving end of being deprioritized it can feel like ist personal. So this is why Networking and trying to get that share of voice can be hard but persistance will pay off. But I admit I find it harder vs a few years ago to network - it could be as we get older we tend to have less time and General interests.

There are places were you can find enrichment of People who are willing to Network more - your industry meet ups, for example so look there.

But the reality is that Networking and those barriers you're finding happens even after your're established and have experience. I had a recent experience with HR from a Company (a Big Pharma) that didn't even have a courtesy to call me at a mutually agreed scheduled time and didn't follow up with an apology and that HR Talent Scout reached out to me!! Is it bad behavior? yes. Does it reflect bad on this Company? Yes. Am I annoyed? yes. Will I turn down another opportunity to talk with that Company...NO! Its too compeititive out there to hold grudges. But I have someone I know in that Company and put it this way - that HR department is so stressed, People are burning out, quitting, and are having meltdowns. HR employees are there one day gone the next. Could be that Person is gone. So it is what it is, too bad for them - I have too much too do in my current Job really care that much to be bothered.

So not the answer you're probably looking for but I think alot of barriers outthere in Terms of willingess to Network is driven by lack of time and maybe I'm biased because I also don't have much time - so a caveat to my answer.

DX
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Nate W. » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:43 am

I am always amazed at who will help and who will not. Maybe I am disproving the peer2 model of networking. However, I have found when you go 1-3 levels above where you should be or want to be you will get a better response and this person is often more generous with their help.

Recently, I spoke to the head of alumni affairs at a school I graduated from and she kindly put me in connection with the Principal and Senior Partner of IP at a multinational law firm in Texas. This attorney spend an hour of time with me and offered his help in my search. However, on the other hand, I have a close friend that is a CEO of a small freight manufacturing company (~300) that I have known for a 25 years and have helped his family in the past (i.e. close family friend). So, I asked him to put me in touch with his patent attorney at a large firm with the intent to get a referral or introduction to the head of the biotech group. When I contacted his attorney on my own, after waiting for a reply from my friend, I realized my friend lied. My friend promised to introduce me to his attorney but he never did even after asking him three times politely. I graciously covered for my friend when I spoke with the attorney and he in turn provided me with a referral to the head of the biotech group. I didn't ask my friend for a recommendation but only an introduction. Not to much to ask for a friend!

After I got an email back from his attorney confirming what my friend didn't do, I confronted my friend. He denied that he ignored my request and then blew-up. I shared this story with another friend who got furious with him. I finally let him have it: What is the big stinking deal; it is a just an introduction; I would do this for you?

A complete stranger gladly helps with a big connection and a friend can't even provide an introduction to his attorney. Some people can be so strange when networking and asking about jobs. Frankly, I think my friend deserved it.

Here is a Liz Ryan article and it deals with jealousy in hiring:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/201 ... 4b3b7d778e
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby D.X. » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:42 am

Hi Nate,

Look, i've been doing alot of Networking lately - mainly reactivating old contacts and where possible trying the make new ones but that's difficult for me due to my time limitations, so I'm going for the low hanging fruit.

Similar experiences to you but i've been Networking since my PhD years so Long experience here.

Some Network contacts are willing to link you to another contact, some are non-responsive, and some are luke-warm. People are People and what ever the motivations are, well that can't be controlled.

Some of my old Networks who are non-responsive are those whom i've directly worked with and had good professional/working relationships while at the same employer - shared many laughs and a few glasses of wine. So they're what I call the useless contacts, they are generally the Folks that should you find yourself laid off whilst they are not, they'll note really engage you anymore - so called fair weather friends.

Some of my old Networks came calling on me when they were out of Jobs to which I tried to help via insights, or refferal to my Company, or given a link to another contact/recruiter - yet when I called on them on a Job seeking endeavors, I received Radio silence or Zero follow-up.

Nate, it just Comes down to People - not every one is the same. Not everyone is networky, not everyone is friendly, some are out for themselves, each have their own motivations and challenges (remember I mentioned "time" above). It is what it is. I'm not going ot chase None-responders/luke warmers.

And then there are the jewels - and those are the ones you treasure, those are the ones that will proactively Keep in contact Long after you've left a Company, and reactively respond when you check in, those are the ones where the conversations still continues Long after you've first engaged and parted ways.

Networking is challenging, it can be fustrating, but it has to be done or we're just putting CVs into bottom-less Company data bases. The rewards can be priceless once acheived. Remember what a key learning/skill out of the PhD experience was? It was perserverance! Same is needed in Job seeking/networked.

So in this thread we talked alot about Networking and hiring challenges, there is alot factors that one can't control or takes too much energy to try to modify, i.e. people's behavior and attitudes. I think the smart Job seeker knows where to apply Investment of time/energy and where not to.

I think we've hashed out most of the issues here and I don't think I have any other Points of value for you other than my experiences above.

As mentioned, know where to apply energy and resources and know when to back-off and redirect Investment of energy and time. Dont get bogged down on perceptions of jealousy or what ever, its a waste of time.

Dx
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Dave Jensen » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:06 pm

Nate, you are always trying to disprove something that is considered good advice here on the forum. Networking is OK - right? Can we both agree on that?

Now, can a PhD with one or two years of postdoc actually reach the VP of R&D at ABC Biotech? How long will it take and how many hours of effort before that person gives up, and says that networking is an invalid approach, or as I've heard so many times, "I just don't seem to be very good at it." Do we want to go pitching that kind of process to people who have never in their life presented themselves to others in this kind of open dialog, where one's ego can be damaged so easily? NO.

The Peer+2 approach is the easy way to get started. Ok, gee, you're now far beyond the Networking 101 approach, good for you. . . But please don't come in here and try to spoil the apple barrel for the rest of our readership, OK? Peer+2 simply works. People who are just a couple of years ahead of you understand your need for help. They have empathy. They are available, there is no screening on calls made to them, there are no secretaries blocking that person's doorway.

We speak to the masses here, Nate, and our material is not directed to 10 or 15 year job seekers. It's a whole 'nother world from whatever you are up to. Thanks for your understanding!

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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Nate W. » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:30 am

Dave,

Honestly, I believe that I am trying to help those scientists on this forum; not trying to spoil the apple barrel for other readers. I am not trying to disprove anything but only sharing my insights and experiences which is based on many years working in the life sciences. The reason I try to help is that I can sympathize with the struggles of those scientists looking for a job out of academia and I have learned a lot from this forum.

We can agree emphatically that networking is essential to finding work nowadays. What we are discussing is what is the best approach to networking; what is more effective and efficient. I believe that there are techniques and strategies to be employed. Based on my experiences, I believe Peer+2 needs tweaking.

You said "Now can a PhD with one or two years of post-doctoral experience reach the VP of R&D at ABC Biotech? Yes, they can with the right approach and I say they should do it more often (in a polite and assertive manner). With the Peer +2 approach, you probably will be contacting someone who doesn't have any authority to hire and doesn't have an incentive to see you hired. This contact will most likely provide you with some useful insights, if they are willing to speak with you. My position is that this informational discussion with a non-manager peer doesn't necessarily move one closer towards employment. You want to talk with managers who can influence hiring decisions; otherwise, why waste your time with things you already know? Plus, I have noticed that your competition which would be a Peer+2 contact will be less likely to talk with you than an actual manager (i.e. about 2-3 levels above where you want to be employed; for a scientist position, that would be a Director or VP).

I landed my first position by contacting a VP of Biotechnology at a CRO whose wife was a professor and dean at a local University where I worked. This was the only way that I could have gotten this job. Upon reflection, I have never gotten a job by talking or networking with anyone least than an actual manager (never less than a Director level; Director to CEO or Senior Partner for law firms). Sadly, the managers have more incentive to talk with and objectively consider those who show initiative by networking versus a Peer +2, your competition, who might fear the increase competition if you have a good background.

Unless a Peer +2 is a hiring manager and has a budget, why talk with them?

Correct me if you think I don't fully understand Peer +2. Will this approach work more effectively for younger scientists versus those with more experience?

Wish the thread was more about techniques and approaches to networking; how to get a better response rate?

Dave, I don't think DX and I disagree. I enjoy my discussions with DX and I respect his opinions. I am of the belief that differences of opinions are normal and constructive.
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Re: Dealing with Jealousy When Networking and Interviewing

Postby Dave Jensen » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:51 am

Nate,

You need to go start another forum - please.

This one is read by thousands of people starting out in their job search. They reach out to people who are just a couple or a few years ahead of them, and those people are incentivized to help them by bonuses from H/R that run into the range of a couple of thousand $$. But, even in companies that don't have referral bonuses, they help others because they don't see competitors everywhere as you do. The world of successful people in these industries is filled with collaborators, not competitors. I read the stuff you write about everyone digging you in the back, and everyone jealous about you, and how everyone is a competitor and it just fails to have any common ground with the average forum reader and his or her experience.

Nate, you've been posting here for years about your continuing job search. This is a forum for people who are hopefully in a short term process -- transitioning from one world (academic science) to another (full time employment). Most of them have PhD's. You're in the business world and you don't have a PhD. The world likely works differently for them than your world in the Texas business community.

Dave
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