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MSL Question

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Re: MSL Question

Postby D.X. » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:28 pm

Nate W. wrote:
PS: DX, I am more inclined to respect the opinion of the thought leaders than that of my potential coworkers when it comes to a hiring decision and my candidacy.


Tell that to the interview panel consisting of your potenial co-workers and potential hiring manager and watch how fast the interview will close.

Not the best view to have but if its your view and opinion, and thats working for you, great. I don't know how..but congrats! I don't advise others hold that opinion.

Putting myself in the Panels shoes, I'd be greatly confused if a candidate Comes running to me with citing thought leaders opinion is superior to mine in the Job im currently executing and team i'm leading - for example your fierce pharma article you noted...hmm..i'm not sure i'd respect a candidate telling me the merits of the opinion of Partner/co-founder of a firm that't i've fired for Quality/Integrity issues. Hmm..go figure.


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Re: MSL Question

Postby Rich Lemert » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:00 pm

Nate

If your approach works for you, great. However, keep in mind that you are an experiment of n=1, and you are arguing against people who a) have multiple personal experience that supports their view, and b) who have seen multiple other individuals who's experience also supports their view. You are NOT going to convince them they are wrong because they have seen plenty of evidence that the approach they advocate works.

I would also suggest that by focusing exclusively on "hiring manager level" individuals, you are setting unnecessary boundaries and limiting your opportunities for success. On the one hand, you are not giving your "peer + 2" colleagues a chance to help you because you have decided - somewhat arbitrarily - that they are going to be too insecure to help you. On the other, you are dealing with a level that generally has a gate-keeper who's job it is to keep that individual from being bothered by a bunch of strangers who are - quite frankly - looking out for their own best interests.

At the risk of turning this discussion into a personal attack, I would also suggest that your lack of success in dealing with "peer+2" might stem more from your side than from theirs. Your posts in this thread come across as obstinate and stubborn, and give a strong impression of "superiority". You appear to be unwilling to consider the opinions of others - regardless of their experience level, and constantly try to find flaws in their arguments while holding your own views as "gospel". If this attitude is displayed in your interactions with near-peers, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to help you out; you appear to consider them little more than means to an end, rather than colleagues looking out for each other.
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Re: MSL Question

Postby Nate W. » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:29 pm

Remember guys we are here to help fellow scientists. Below are two articles on employee referral programs. One points out the potential problems with employees being reluctant to make referrals and the US News Report (Item 3) points out that one should start closer to the top in getting referrals.

https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/ou ... -referrals

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/20 ... 704f5a1a2a

Dave's strategy assumes there are sufficient number of employee referral program in the biotech sector. Based on my experiences, I would be shocked if that number is greater than 5% of all companies in the biotech sector has employee have referral programs.

The approach does not take in account:

1) the candidate might not have a contact at a target company and has to expand their network?. Who do they call then or where do they start?

2) some candidates might be further along in their career given their age and others might have gone back to school to get additional degree(s) after significant experience (industry and academia). Who do they call then to network? Is who they call based on age or where they are professionally and/or what position they are seeking?

3) assumes all peer 2 contacts are willing to help or can actually help.

4) assumes all hiring practices are the same across the many different types of employers who might hire scientists (e.g. law firms, consulting, reagent companies, or family run VC firms).

All I am trying to point out is perhaps a more efficient way to network and get hired. This shouldn't upset anyone because it is being made on my part in an effort to help others.

Personally, I have a lot of admiration and empathy for those experimental scientists who dedicate their lives to research and innovation; this comes from many years of experience in the laboratory. I think they often get short changed in the job market and the academia community who trains them often don't care about their future careers or even financially takes advantage of their labor. Thus, I will always support my fellow life scientists and help out when I can.
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Re: MSL Question

Postby Rich Lemert » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:28 pm

Nate W. wrote:
1) the candidate might not have a contact at a target company and has to expand their network?. Who do they call then or where do they start?


There are several places one could start. Since this is a science-based audience, one place would be the technical literature (including patents) - searching for individuals associated with your target employer. The membership lists of appropriate professional organizations and alumni groups would also be a good place to start - as would a LinkedIn search.


2) some candidates might be further along in their career given their age and others might have gone back to school to get additional degree(s) after significant experience (industry and academia). Who do they call then to network? Is who they call based on age or where they are professionally and/or what position they are seeking?



As has been pointed out repeatedly, both explicitly and implicitly, your 'peers' are those people at a level of responsibility similar to where you are. Age and experience are irrelevant factors. And guess what! By looking at "peer+2", you're often finding the hiring managers that would actually have an input into the jobs you'd likely be considered for.


3) assumes all peer 2 contacts are willing to help or can actually help.



Regarding "willingness to help", you never know unless you ask. If the other person is not willing to help, you're no worse off than you were before. Regarding "ability to help", that depends on what you're looking for. While they may not have hiring authority, they certainly know the people who do. They also have a pretty good idea of what their organization does and what type of people generally seem to succeed there.


4) assumes all hiring practices are the same across the many different types of employers who might hire scientists (e.g. law firms, consulting, reagent companies, or family run VC firms).


No, it doesn't. What it does assume is that by contacting people within the organization and building a relationship with them, you can find out what the practices are at that company.


I'm beginning to suspect that a large fraction of the difference of opinion we're experiencing is based an a different perception of the purpose behind networking. I get the impression you view it as a means to an end; your priority is making the contacts that will lead to a job offer - and if you establish a relationship in the process that's just an added bonus. Most of us view it as an opportunity to build the relationships that will be helpful throughout our career, and that we can tap - in an appropriate manner - to help find employment.
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Re: MSL Question

Postby Dave Jensen » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:05 pm

Locking thread. I don't want to waste any more of our advisors' time on replies to this thread,

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"One of the most powerful networking practices is to provide immediate value to a new connection. This means the moment you identify a way to help someone, take action." - Lewis Howes
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