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Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Dave Jensen » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:29 pm

Hi Nate,

That's probably going to eventually go away. Some Eastern state (I can't remember which, it's in a clear minority at this moment) has come up with some kind of regulation or law that says that employers can not ask that out of the chute. Yes, you can later have conversations about money, but you can't start out the conversation by asking that (in this State). I mention it because other states could start to do the same thing. It's an uncomfortable question for all, and one like sexual preference, just doesn't need to be asked at the front door.

Recruiters, after establishing a mutual interest (that's the key point -- the company is interested, the candidate is interested) do need to know something about compensation, so they aren't wasting their client's time. But that's different than asking it as some kind of a form you check off before you even work with a person. I'd call that "being a rookie" and write off that recruiter.

Dave
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Ana » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:19 pm

I’m late to the thread!

The last time I was on the market I was surprised at how many companies asked about the salary expectations from the screening interview by HR, insisting that they need that information before they could even get me through to a phone interview with the hiring manager. So in my experience, like DX and EKL also said, THEY are bringing up the money conversation way too early.

I believe in the “he who speaks the first number loses” rule that Dave mentioned, and in leaving the money conversation until the end so that the company has decided that they want you and make sure they put on the table a compelling offer. Based on those two rules the european companies that I’ve interviewed for are asking the candidate to give a number first (bad for the candidate) and at the screening interview stage (way too early!).

As for the original case about the woman in BuzzFeed, it depends if she asked for the compensation range or for the specific compensation package. If she asked about the specifics then that was too early. If she simply asked for the salary range just to be in the same page… then I actually think the company overreacted. Dave, using your example of dating I think that asking if they "plan to one day start a family" is an ok question for an early date, also to make sure you are on the same page, yet asking "how many children you want to have together" is a completely different question. Broad range is fine, specifics is off-putting.

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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Dave Jensen » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:13 am

Ana said, "Dave, using your example of dating I think that asking if they "plan to one day start a family" is an ok question for an early date, also to make sure you are on the same page, yet asking "how many children you want to have together" is a completely different question. Broad range is fine, specifics is off-putting."

Ana, I agree, and great use of the analogy. Thanks!

Dave
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby E.K.L. » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:11 am

Dave Jensen wrote:Why risk alienating potential employers by asking too early about compensation? It's not just a golden rule, it goes back to the basics of negotiating. You let the other person bring up the subject first, and name a number. "He who speaks the first number loses" -- hey, that's fairly international, has nothing to do with the location or the generation, just plain common sense. You wait until they talk about money, and then you let them do the talking first. Makes sense from every perspective, no matter where you live or what your job goals are.

And you've got to be kidding me . . . there are cultures where you meet someone on a first date and immediately ask "How many children do you want to have?" I doubt that. I think that analogy holds up.

Dave

Because I'm not applying in the US. If their reaction would be such as in the article you quoted, that tells me it's not a work culture I would want to be part of. Never had it happen, though. Don't name a number isn't the same as don't start the salary talk yourself.


As for taking the analogy too far, I'd be wary to push the Western standards of dating to be the one-and-all. (same as with any 'golden rules') There are cultures where you don't even get to go on first dates, for example.
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Dave Jensen » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:17 pm

Thank you EKL, but as the moderator, let me be the first to warn all tribes in the middle of the Amazon that this forum is focused on the Western process of job seeking, and that our advice may not always be relevant to them.

Dave
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Rebecca Q. » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:19 am

[quote="Dave Jensen"]Steven, that's not science specific. In the general population -- people who just go to work to earn a paycheck -- that would indeed be the #1 reason why people leave their jobs.

In the sciences and the arts, people don't leave for the same reasons.

Dave[/quote]

the most simplistic and least logically supported statement I have read in a long time...
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Rebecca Q. » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:28 am

[quotes Dave's earlier comment)

Dear Dave,

Are you implying that there were no such 'incidents' taking place in your generation?!

Did it occur to you that we could perhaps quite safely assume that they were less reported instead? Or are you simply just stereotyping? Considering your position I would label it as a bit of a professional misstep...but use your own judgment.

Thank you,
Sincerely yours, a Millennial...
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Abby » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:04 am

Let's not pretend that people work for (gasp!) money. Its disingenuous to act surprised when people admit that they are looking for a job for money. So, if we agree that I'm hiring to get work done, and you're looking to get paid (and hopefully fulfill good career, etc) then why be shocked when money comes up? I'd agree that it looks like a double standard when the employer can ask about salary, references, background check, etc before an interview even but job seekers can't bring up salary?
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Dave Jensen » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:06 pm

Abby wrote:Let's not pretend that people work for (gasp!) money. Its disingenuous to act surprised when people admit that they are looking for a job for money. So, if we agree that I'm hiring to get work done, and you're looking to get paid (and hopefully fulfill good career, etc) then why be shocked when money comes up? I'd agree that it looks like a double standard when the employer can ask about salary, references, background check, etc before an interview even but job seekers can't bring up salary?


If it's a "double standard," it's one that's existed for decades. It's just protocol -- that's what I'd call it. The employer is the one "footing the bill" so they get to choose the time and place to come up with the money question. It's something that won't change, or that will take a long, long time to be washed out of the culture. So, along that way, as job seekers, you have to be aware that when you bring up money, it's distasteful.

Yes, I know all the arguments why it shouldn't be distasteful, as you say Abby everyone needs to work for money. But because this dance -- this back and forth exchange that has gone on for decades -- operates this way, it's better for you to play along than to buck the protocol.

No one reading that woman's story could support the company. But, on the other hand, she might be working there today if she had just kept pushing forward in a positive way with her interviewing instead of stopping the process to ask about money. (Yes, maybe it is not a company she'd like to work for, but she'll never know).

Dave
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Re: Asking about money appears to be a generation gap hot button

Postby Dave Jensen » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:15 pm

Rebecca Q. wrote:[quotes Dave's earlier comment)

Dear Dave,

Are you implying that there were no such 'incidents' taking place in your generation?!

Did it occur to you that we could perhaps quite safely assume that they were less reported instead? Or are you simply just stereotyping? Considering your position I would label it as a bit of a professional misstep...but use your own judgment.

Thank you,
Sincerely yours, a Millennial...


Nope, neither -- not stereotyping, not misstepping. My job here is to offer career advice. My suggestion is to allow the interview process to proceed to the point where the employer talks about money. Then, it's wide open for whatever way you want to play it.

It's not stereotyping when you see hundreds of comments all supporting one side of the story. That paints a very clear picture. I would certainly not support this company's actions either -- they both blew it. As a recruiter, I watch these situations play out all the time, on the "playing field" while I am up in the stands so to speak. I watch companies and candidates come together, and just as 99.9% (probably 100%) of the job seeker books say, when the candidate brings up money first, it's not good. It unbalances the process from the way that it rolls out naturally. That creates a doubt in the employer's minds -- are they dealing with someone who is not "our kind of person?" What is this "our kind of person"? It's different in every company, but the company culture is NEVER "we are all here for a paycheck." Instead, they're on a mission, from the CEO on down.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just that there's a way to interview and there's a way to stumble. She stumbled.

Dave
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