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Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby RGM » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:55 pm

Rich Lemert wrote:I agree that minute differences (e.g. your 4% figure) are not worth worrying about. That's why I included my warning to them in my final paragraph.

What I object to is the attitude that employees must always be kept in the dark about what their peers are earning. Information is power, and this policy keeps all power in the hands of the company. There are good reasons for the employer to keep the information confidential, just as there are good reasons for employees not to share information they've found out about what others are making. I don't feel these reasons apply to information about your own salary.


I couldn't agree more with you Rich. It's another example of the employer trying to pay employees the least amount possible, and still be perceived as fair.

There's no law preventing employees from sharing what they make. A reason why people don't share is simply because of greed/envy. Employers count on that so they won't have to raise wages/salaries.




I talked to a business person about 5 years ago from China. In China it was not uncommon for people to know others salaries. They often went out to celebrate a raise.
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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby Dave Jensen » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:21 pm

RGM wrote:
Rich Lemert wrote:I agree that minute differences (e.g. your 4% figure) are not worth worrying about. That's why I included my warning to them in my final paragraph.

What I object to is the attitude that employees must always be kept in the dark about what their peers are earning. Information is power, and this policy keeps all power in the hands of the company. There are good reasons for the employer to keep the information confidential, just as there are good reasons for employees not to share information they've found out about what others are making. I don't feel these reasons apply to information about your own salary.
I couldn't agree more with you Rich. It's another example of the employer trying to pay employees the least amount possible, and still be perceived as fair.

There's no law preventing employees from sharing what they make. A reason why people don't share is simply because of greed/envy. Employers count on that so they won't have to raise wages/salaries.

I talked to a business person about 5 years ago from China. In China it was not uncommon for people to know others salaries. They often went out to celebrate a raise.


I've seen nothing but trouble when people know each other's salaries in a company. I've seen it lead to nothing but dissatisfaction and dissension. The focus should be on job satisfaction, and ensuring you're in the job that fits you best, versus trying to achieve parity with someone else on compensation. Talk about a road to heartache . . .

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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby RGM » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:28 pm

I believe that may happen as well, but the source of that ultimately starts with the employer.
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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby RGM » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:35 pm

Andrew wrote: We might pay the MIT grad more than the MSU grad. 4% is the difference between $65K and $62.5K. I cannot see how a discussion over this minute a difference in an initial evaluation of value to the company will succeed or even end well.


If it's such a minute difference why is there a difference?

Why not equally paid for the same position based on the above info you provided?

All things being equal, I wouldn't pay 1 employee more simply because they came from a "better" university.
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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby Dave Jensen » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:50 pm

Here's an analogy. Let's say you are working as a Fleet Manager for a large company that provides vehicles to their employees. They've recently decided that it is best to start acquiring these vehicles on the aftermarket rather than through brand new car purchases through a dealer.

So, you go out and buy 100 Lexus's -- some model, same year -- on the market from private sellers. You'd pay X amount for some, X +10% for others, X -5% for some, and perhaps even X +20% for a few of them. Why? Because each sale is negotiated.

It's the same way when hiring a laboratory full of scientists. Every single job offer is negotiated. If it is not, than it will be X. But in some cases, that hire starts at X +4%, in other cases, X +8%, and so on. This leads, throughout the following years of a career, to some rather big differences in pay between one person and another, because everyone will get their annual increases and occasional bumps for superior performance.

This is why it is so extremely critical for the new graduate or the job-seeking Postdoc to study and understand the basics of job offer negotiation.

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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby RGM » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:40 pm

Dave Jensen wrote:Here's an analogy. Let's say you are working as a Fleet Manager for a large company that provides vehicles to their employees. They've recently decided that it is best to start acquiring these vehicles on the aftermarket rather than through brand new car purchases through a dealer.

So, you go out and buy 100 Lexus's -- some model, same year -- on the market from private sellers. You'd pay X amount for some, X +10% for others, X -5% for some, and perhaps even X +20% for a few of them. Why? Because each sale is negotiated.

It's the same way when hiring a laboratory full of scientists. Every single job offer is negotiated. If it is not, than it will be X. But in some cases, that hire starts at X +4%, in other cases, X +8%, and so on. This leads, throughout the following years of a career, to some rather big differences in pay between one person and another, because everyone will get their annual increases and occasional bumps for superior performance.

This is why it is so extremely critical for the new graduate or the job-seeking Postdoc to study and understand the basics of job offer negotiation.

Dave




I understand that point of it. I disagree that others should be paid differently for the same job. All things being equal, I doubt the employee who is being paid 10% less is expected/allowed to perform less than the person who is paid more.
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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby Dave Jensen » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:27 pm

RGM said "I understand that point of it. I disagree that others should be paid differently for the same job. All things being equal, I doubt the employee who is being paid 10% less is expected/allowed to perform less than the person who is paid more."

That would really tick me off if I were working in a company where I started early in the morning, and worked on Saturdays, and took work home, and there was someone else who was there with the same job title who came in at 9 and left at 5 and wasn't holding up his or her end of the bargain. Why shouldn't I be paid more?

You'll never find a place where people put out the same effort. If that were the case, than you'd have a case for the same pay.

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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby RGM » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:34 pm

Dave Jensen wrote:
You'll never find a place where people put out the same effort. If that were the case, than you'd have a case for the same pay.

Dave


Haha, good point!
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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby Rich Lemert » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:19 pm

In an interesting coincidence, Massachusetts has just enacted a law (effective July, 2018) that bans employers from a) asking for your salary history until they have made you a bonafide employment offer, and b) preventing you from discussing your salaries with your coworkers. It was apparently enacted in an effort to help address the gender gap in wages, but I think it's going to benefit everyone.

Here's just one link among many:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/02/pf/jobs ... quity-law/
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Re: Can I negotiate an offer after verbal acceptance?

Postby Dave Jensen » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:40 pm

Rich,

Thank you for pointing that out. Your video link was not really all that relevant, because it's more about asking for a raise. But this law . . . it's funny, but I haven't seen it spoken about ANYWHERE in the employment trade press. It's revolutionary. It puts asking questions about your salary history in the same category as asking about your marital status, or your sexual orientation. Big "no-no's"! I can't imagine that an entire sector of the USA, companies with offices in Massachusetts, are really going to completely re-do their employment forms and train their managers in this one state only, to stop asking those questions. That's the strange part about it. It's more of a sweeping federal law in nature, but only being enacted in one state.

I don't know how I feel about it. I feel happy because I absolutely HATE those questions about salary history and how much it can tank your efforts to get a fair offer. But it seems so darn obtrusive. Another set of regulations to deal with (ugh). We'll have to see how it works in real practice. Actually, because the law goes on to say that you CAN ask about salary history after you've extended a bona-fide job offer, what could happen is that employers will start offering low-ball job offers (lower than today's low-ball offers, that is) and then when a person has that in hand and says "Wait a minute, this seems a little low . . . " the employer can then legally say, "Oh is it? Please tell me about your salary history." So I guess there is a "work around" for the employer, built in!

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